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It's weird that people are recommending Signal over XMPP and apps like Conversations. Not only does it have E2E encryption it can also be self hosted and is cross platform. You also don't need a phone number. It's like an email address or mastodon account.
@bhhaskin Not that weird, #XMPP is harder to set up and use, nobody wants to have to fiddle around with a messaging program trying to get it to work. And if you want real privacy that's even more hassle. It's like the difference between running Windows or MacOS and running something like Slackware Linux. If you're not a true geek devoted to making it work, you probably won't have a good time with XMPP, partly because the documentation is horrible. With #Signal, you pretty much just install the app and register and it works. Even if you don't want your cell phone number associated with your Signal account, it's still easier to set up that XMPP in my experience.
But also, if you truly want privacy with XMPP you have to run your own server, and that's fine for communicating with people on your local network (once you get it working) but how do you connect to your server from say your phone? Now you have to open ports and do all kinds of other nerdy stuff and there is a good chance you will accidentally leave an insecure opening into your system or network. And yes, a true Linux geek might perhaps welcome that challenge, but most normal users just want the damn thing to work with as little thought or effort as possible. And that's not what you're going to get with XMPP. I don't disagree that XMPP is arguably better, but where are the easy to follow setup videos? Where is the single page of documentation that will let you get everything up and running in under five or ten minutes? Maybe you are nerdy enough to deal with XMPP, but it's not real likely all your friends and family will be.
And if your response is that you can use some third-party XMPP server and just run an XMPP client like Gajim, first of all you have no idea how secure that server really is, and second, if they require payment, that's a non-starter because #Signal (and similar apps) are free. And also how do you know that a third-party XMPP server won't just disappear one day, perhaps when you need them most?
And yes, you do need a phone number with Signal (which is the one thing I really detest about several of that type of services) but it does not need to be your personal cell phone number, if you search the Internet there are workarounds for that. And yes, that does make Signal a bit more of a hassle to set up, but not the major headache of dealing with XMPP.
@maple
About the one page setup to get it running : https://snikket.org/service/quickstart/
And once someone you trust has it running, the invite is actually faster then signal.
Only have to press a link and choose a nickname.
>... have no idea how secure it really is...
I've got no idea how secure the signal server *really* is.
What I know : it's likely there are powerful people trying to get into that one. And I pretty sure my small server isn't under that observation and fire.
@bhhaskin
@Menel @bhhaskin All I was commenting on was why MOST people would choose Signal over XMPP. I'm not saying XMPP isn't better, I'm saying even that one page of instructions gets much too deep in the weeds for most people, who just want the most painless way possible to set up messaging,
Skikket is probably great if you have someone willing to host a server, and then help all the less technically inclined members of their family set it up. But the typical family may not have anyone that tech literate, or even if they are tech literate they may not want the hassle of running a server that would need to be partially exposed to the wide open internet, particularly if they do not really know how to harden their servers against intrusion. There are a lot of users that are comfortable with setting up a file server or a media server on their own local network, but in their router the don't open any ports to those servers no no one from outside the local network can get in. The idea of exposing any kind of server to the Internet scares them to death; they'd much rather let some company take that risk, if they can get that service for free. The page you recommended said absolutely nothing about security concerns.
And yes, you can (as they recommend) get a server on Digital Ocean (or elsewhere) and let them worry about security but then you have to pay money for that, and Signal is free. And you'll still wind up having to help many of your friends or relatives with app installation IF they will even consent to run a XMPP compatible app. Those are reasons everybody isn't rushing to XMPP.
You can disagree if you like, but I've used XMPP for MANY years (since back when it was called jingle or jabber or whatever it was called when Google started using it) and I have never found it particularly easy to work with, and that is before you get into the security concerns. I still have a Prosody server running on one of my local systems but that is another program which really is designed for the true tech geek and not the typical user, and has (in my opinion) terrible instructions, I was only ever able to get it to work by following someone's "cookbook" style instructions. I recently switched from MacOS to Ubuntu Linux and while there were several things I had problems with, getting that damn XMPP server to work with a Linux client was one of the hardest, took me like a week to figure it out and the only client that works halfway well is Gajim. I realize others may have had a much different experience, but I am just saying that so you know I am not speaking as someone who barely has a clue what XMPP is. An expert I definitely am NOT, but I can say it was FAR easier to get Signal desktop client working despite the fact that I did not tie it to my cell phone in any way.
But that said, if you are more of a tech geek than I and are willing to help your friends and family members get on an XMPP server that you personally run, I applaud you. But you are probably the exception; unfortunately most families or friend groups don't have someone like you around.
@maple
I don't think anyone ever argued that whatsapp or signal is or isn't easier to install.
We agree there.
There is an open xmpp server that's exactly the same as these services, called Quicksy. (install app and enter phone number) but the you still have the network effect driving people to Whatsapp instead.
But something beeing easier to install isn't my only metric to recommend something.
@bhhaskin
@maple
(2/2)
Your experience with prosody is unfortunate, I've luckily had a much better one. It works very well with all clients since many years. But as written above, snikket is alread setup the way to work with l modern features and easier then prosody. (it runs prosody under the hood) prosody is like a Lego box.
And yes. Things cost money. As long as people think cost free means they don't pay anything, it will stay bad. A sustainable business model is crucial.
@bhhaskin
Again, I am not going to argue the point, but the fact is that very many online services do NOT cost money, at least not to the end user, unless they choose to donate something. If you are willing to pay to use an XMPP server, or to pay for hosting so you can run your own XMPP server more securely, you are in a definite minority.
I don't know what to say to people who say things like "everything costs money" or "I'm willing to pay for this thing because I find it of value". So, that's how you feel, but many people will opt for the free service instead. So if your assertion is that XMPP (or XMPP hosting) SHOULD cost money, then right there you lose a whole bunch of people who have never paid for a messaging service and never will. Call them frugal, call them cheapskates, call them freeloaders and they will wear that badge proudly and still refuse to pay for something they can get for free, especially if the free thing is also easier to deal with. Even if the non-free thing is arguably better from a technical standpoint, a lot of people don;t care about that as long as the free thing just works. It's like Web browsers; one could argue that web browsers should not be free, but as long as there are so many good free ones available, hardly anyone will pay for one (and if the paid web browser were more difficult to install and configure, it would never get off the ground).
Now, if you want to be the messaging provider for your friends and family, and are willing to bear the expense and be their unpaid tech support, and be the one to get the complaints if the service isn't meeting their expectations, more power to you. Most people are not willing to do that and many don't have the technical ability to do that.
Anyway, it does you no good to argue with me over this, I've already made my choice and I use XMPP for certain things and Signal for others. I was just trying to answer the question of why more people don't choose XMPP over Signal.. The fact is that they don't, I'm giving you some reasons why, and if you choose to disagree or ignore those reasons it's no skin off my nose.
@Menel @bhhaskin By the way, I have a recommendation for you: Switch your Mastodon account to hear-me.social - then you could make posts of over 500 characters (up to 12,000 characters, actually) without having to divide them into multiple posts.
Think carefully about the reasons you might have for not wanting to do that. Too much trouble? Happy with what you're using now? Never heard of hear-me.social? All of those are reasons someone might not want to switch to a particular XMPP provider. I'm telling you about a Mastodon instance that's arguably better than what you are using now, yet I'll bet you won't switch for, well, reasons.
That is how many people feel about XMPP.
@maple
Laziness? Yeah I know. I know it all. I'm not arguing about why people don't switch.
I know the reasons. For me this was about what to recommend and why. No what people do.
Still: for IM the main point is network effect. By far.
I'm already considering switching again btw. It's just not easy to find the server I want. 